I found a very interesting site wwwfirstloveministry.com. I enjoyed reading the information there. They have named the Beast and I have never thought about the end times in this way before. Check it out.

Kim

Kim wrote:


Gee, that is really a good trick, to be able to give the name of the Beast, for the Beast is the Antichrist, and God's Word tells us that who he is will not be revealed until after the Holy Spirit and all of the Bride of Christ has left this earth in the Rapture.

I didn't say I agree just that it was interesting. I don't know about what you say. The bible gives us a clear sign about the beast so I don't think I can agree with you. I mean, after all, John wrote to believers and he gave us a very specific sign; a number. And it is the only real thing he gave of such a kind in the whole of Revelation. IF we weren't to know something of the beast then why would JOhn give us something so specific?

Kim

Kim wrote:



It is the Bible which tells us when the Beast, or Antichrist, will be revealed, or named. Any reference to the number 666 is misleading, for everyone that I have seen try to apply the 666 to a person, or someone's name, is only blowing smoke and vapor. For the Bible does not say that the number of 666 applies to the name, it only says that it is the number of a man, Where does it say that it is the number of his name?? Everyone from Hitler to the Pope has had it claimed, that their name count equaled 666, and therefore they had to be the Beast (Antichrist). It is only His Number, and NOT the number of his name.

Revelation 13:18 Here is wisdom. Let him that hath understanding count the number of the beast: for it is the number of a man; and his number is Six hundred threescore and six.

Since this is what the Bible tells us, then how is it possible for any man to determine who the Antichrist (Beast) is, before the following happens????

2 Thes. 2:2-4; 6-8
2 That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand.
3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;
4 Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.
6 ]i] And now ye know what withholdeth that he might be revealed in his time.[/i]
7 For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way.
8 And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming:


The Word in the Bible tells us that the Beast, called the Antichrist, will Not be revealed until several things happen first.

This is the first condition that must be met for him to be revealed

2 Thes. Speaks of the coming of the Lord God Jesus Christ to set up his Kingdom on the Earth. Two things are given here, first there will be a great falling away, from Christ. That has Not happened yet! And after that great falling away, Then will the "man of sin" who is the "Beast", who is the "Antichrist", will be Revealed. Until you see the great falling away, the Beast will not be revealed..

The second condition that must take place before the Beast can be revealed.

"Only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way." And then shall that Wicked be revealed. "He that letteth" is holding him back, only allowing (or letting) the Man of Sin, the Beast, the Antichrist, to go only so far, and no farther, until the one who letteth is taken out of the way. Who is the one who letteth? That is the Holy Spirit of the Most Holy Lord God Jehovah. This is the same Holy Spirit which is given to every Christian, and this is the same Holy Spirit which Jesus said would never leave us.

John 14:16 And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever;

So what we have is this: As a Christian, you have the Holy Ghost, (Comforter, Spirit) in you, and the Holy Ghost will never leave you. So, when the Holy Ghost leaves this world, this Earth, (taken out of the way) we go with Him. This happens at the Rapture, and it is right after the Rapture that the Beast (Antichrist) will be revealed. This Second condition before the Beast is revealed is the Rapture, and it has not happened yet.


Therefore, I can say with perfect confidence, that according to the Bible, No one on this earth will be able to tell you the name of the Beast, until after these two conditions are met. And neither one of them has happened yet.

And I personally intend to be in that Rapture, so I don't care who he is, or what his name is. I don't want to be here on this earth to find out, for that would mean that I missed the Rapture, and anyone who misses the Rapture will be forever lost. So the Bible says.

Oh I know, that is not what the majority of people teach, they think that you, and them, can go all the way to Armageddon, and then decide to join with the Lord God. But inspite of what they teach, the Lord Says different.

Hello Rev.

Please bear with me on this one. I do not mean to debate you in any way about the Pre-Tribulation rapture but I just want to know your views and how you think this it is accurate with the Holy Word. I will give you my reasons why I believe the Rapture occurs after the tribulation not before and I hope you can reply and let me know how you feel and give me reasons why you believe different. God bless you and as always, pray about this.

1. First thing when Jesus speaks about the latter days in Matthew 24 he tells us watch out that no one deceives you. Because many will come in His name claming they are In Christ but really aren’t.
Matthew 24:4,5
He goes on telling us:
“Then you will be handed over to be persecuted and put to death, and you will be hated by all nations because of me.” Matthew 24:9 Now. Who is Jesus referring to? The people who were “Not Raptured” and became the saints??? The Lord tells us clearly in his Word:
“If the world hates you, keep in mind that it hated me first.” John 15:18 “Remember the words I spoke to you: No Servant is greater than his mater. If they persecuted me, they will persecute you also.” John 15:20If you read the gospels in the Bible you notice that every warning that Jesus gives to the people is also a prophecy. Jesus does not give idle warnings.
Also many many many prophecies given to Raymond tell us to prepare for the day of persecution of the Body of Christ is coming. I.E. #686 #671 #73 these are just a few.

2. Second, Jesus once again tells us in Matthew 24:15,16:
"So when you see standing in the holy place the abomination that causes desolation spoken of through the prophet Daniel – let the reader understand – then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains"
The abomination that causes desolation is when the anti-christ is revealed and comes to power. Then the Lord tells us “LET THE READER UNDERSTAND” Understand what? Or let me say this “This calls for wisdom. If anyone had insight, let him calculate the number of the beast, for it is man’s number. His number is 666” Revelation 13:18 then He goes on saying that those who are in Judea are to flee to the mountains. Who is he referring to? It is the people who have been obedient to God throughout their lives, his saints, his true body of Christ, and his remnant! Notice Judea has always been the heart of God; the same way spiritually so are the saints of the most high. And Jesus tells us to flee because they will kill you if you don’t hide.

A great example of this is in Occurance #935 when the Lord tells Raymond “As I was walking back toward the parking lot, the Lord said, "That's the way Christians are going to live. They are going to have to live in caves and hide themselves."

3. Thessalonians 4 talks about the Rapture of the Church. Paul lets us know that the Lord himself will come down from heaven, with a loud command of the archangel and with the trumpet call of God. And then we are caught up in the clouds to the Lord in the air.
1 Thessalonians 4:13-18
When you go back to Matthew 24, Jesus tells us what happens after the persecution. “At that time the sign of the Son of Man will appear in the sky, and all the nations of the earth will mourn. They will see the Son of man coming on the clouds of the sky with power and great glory. And he will send his angels with a loud trumpet call, and they will gather his elect from the four winds, from one end of the heavens to the other. Matthew 24:30,31
This is when the Rapture occurs, after the tribulation when Jesus himself comes back and gathers his remnant, his saints and the holy ones that obeyed God and were led by him to hide. And when people quote the Word saying “We are not appointed to wrath but to receive salvation through our Lord Jesus” (1 Thessalonians 5:9) they think this refers to the Pre Tribulation rapture. It’s a false statement! The wrath that we are not appointed to is eternal hell and the salvation we receive from Jesus is a place for us in heaven not an easy life on earth. There is no reason why Jesus, the begotten Son of God came down and suffered and laid down his life for us and we expect to have it easy. That’s just not the example that the Lord gave us when he was persecuted.

4. It tells us in the book of Acts chapter 1:9 “After he said this, he was taken up before their very eyes, and a cloud hid him from their sight” then the two angels said to them as he disappeared. “Men of Galilee” they said, “why do you stand here looking into the sky? This same Jesus, who has been taken from you into heaven will come back in the same way you have seen him go into heaven”
My point is. When Jesus comes back clothed with the clouds to gather his people it will be very visible and everyone will see his presence in the clouds. That is the reason why all the nations will mourn. Biblically this cannot happen before the Tribulation!
“They called to the mountains and the rocks, “Fall on us and hide us from the face of him who sits on the throne and from the wrath of the Lamb! For the great day of their wrath has come, and who can stand?” Revelation 6:16
God permits the persecution of his Church. If you look throughout the history of the bible, God permits persecution for the benefit of cleansing his people. The Temple of the Lord was destroyed by the gentiles twice in the Word of God, it shall be destroyed once again. His wrath begins with his Church first and then the world.

5. Also if you look throughout the book of revelation when God is giving wisdom to the 7 Churches you notice he tells the Churches the good deeds and the bad. And then he tells all of them besides the Church of Philadelphia if they overcome they will be greatly rewarded. Overcome what? The last day deception of denying Jesus Christ as their savior. The church of Philadelphia is the spiritual remnant of God who will be protected by him throughout the Tribulation, the ones who “shall flee to the mountains.” The other ones will be captured and persecuted by the gentiles and as long as they overcome and stand fast they will be rewarded greatly by God.

6. Lastly, look at the history of the Church. Throughout 2000 years you notice, God allows persecution of his saints. Try teaching this doctrine to the Christians in muslim nations or communist China that they will disappear before any persecution shall come upon them.

7. Let me conclude this. I do not mean to debate you in anyway Rev. but as a brother I just want to reveal to you what I have gained from reading the Word of God. Please post back to me and let me know your views and why you believe in the pre-trib rapture.


God bless you always,


P.S. To anyone who reads this post. Please pray about this deeply. Don’t listen to me or Rev. Jack but listen to the Lord.

Hi there corxmega11

Thank you, you have a very well thought out and documented letter. I appreciate that.

Instead of copying your letter directly above my answer, I am going to make it part of my answer so there will be no confusion.

To begin with, I would like to give to those who are not familiar with the different positions of when the Rapture will take place, a little history which corxmega11 and I am both familiar with.

• There are those who believe that the Rapture will take place Before the 7 year Great Tribulation period as given in the prophecies of Daniel, this is the Pre-Tribulation position.
• Some believe that the Rapture will happen in the middle of the Tribulation period, this is the Mid Tribulation position..
• Some believe that the Rapture will happen at the end of the Tribulation period, right before Jesus returns, this is the Post Tribulation position.
• Lately there are some who have come to the belief that the Rapture will happen part way between the Pre-Trib and the Mid-Trib, and others who believe the Rapture will happen part way between the Mid-Trib and the Post Trib.

I have no intention of going through all of the scriptures which have been quoted in support of each position.

Corxmega11 has good documentation and a well thought out letter, so I will answer only the questions put forth here. I will place all of my answers in a Red text. It is my intention to only answer as to Why I believe as I do, and not to challenge anyone else's belief. It really does not matter when the Rapture takes place as long as you are ready to go when it does happen.

Hello Rev.

Please bear with me on this one. I do not mean to debate you in any way about the Pre-Tribulation rapture but I just want to know your views and how you think this it is accurate with the Holy Word. I will give you my reasons why I believe the Rapture occurs after the tribulation not before and I hope you can reply and let me know how you feel and give me reasons why you believe different. God bless you and as always, pray about this. I totally agree with you on this.

1. First thing when Jesus speaks about the latter days in Matthew 24 he tells us watch out that no one deceives you. Because many will come in His name claming they are In Christ but really aren’t. Matthew 24:4,5 Yes, the verse says that they will say that "I Am Christ", and there are some who are doing that right now. An example of that right now is "Maitreya" who is claiming to "Be the Christ returned". And he has a very large following around the world, and doing signs and wonders. But I do agree that there are many who come in the Name of Jesus Christ who are Not of Christ, and they do indeed lead many away from Jesus by preaching ANOTHER GOSPEL.. And they abound more and more as these days go by.

He goes on telling us:
“Then you will be handed over to be persecuted and put to death, and you will be hated by all nations because of me.” Matthew 24:9 Now. Who is Jesus referring to? The people who were “Not Raptured” and became the saints??? No! For if we place this verse back into contents, we see that Jesus is listing a series of events which will happen, yet all these things happening are as Jesus Says "All these are the beginning of sorrows". Wars all over the world, which is happening now. Famines, which we are having in many parts of the world right now on massive scales. Pestilence's, which the good people of the earth are fighting right now, Pestilence's which have returned in forms from which they no longer have cures for. It is here now. Earthquakes, can there be any doubts that the earthquakes are coming more frequent, and much more severe, in these days? We have only to open the Newspaper to read of them. But all these are only the beginning, Then comes persecution of Christians!! Today there are Christians ALL around the world who are being persecuted to death for the name of Jesus. Hunted down like animals. Almost every nation on earth has some form of Christian persecution Today, and that includes the United States of America. In this country it is becoming a crime to even preach the Word of God in some places. Ministers are being thrown into Jail in this country. Christians in the U.S. are being restricted as to what they can do, and as to what they can say, in public. It will not be long in this country of the U.S. when Christians will all be imprisoned, or put to death, when it will be a crime to have a bible, or any Christian literature of any kind. No, this verse Matthew 24:9 is not speaking of those who missed the Rapture, and it is not speaking of Christians who are in the middle of the Great Tribulation. It is speaking of us right NOW. The Christians who will suffer BEFORE the Great Tribulation, even before the Great Revival which is coming before the Rapture.

The Lord tells us clearly in his Word:
“If the world hates you, keep in mind that it hated me first.” John 15:18 “Remember the words I spoke to you: No Servant is greater than his mater. If they persecuted me, they will persecute you also.” John 15:20 If you read the gospels in the Bible you notice that every warning that Jesus gives to the people is also a prophecy. Jesus does not give idle warnings.
Also many many many prophecies given to Raymond tell us to prepare for the day of persecution of the Body of Christ is coming. I.E. #686 #671 #73 these are just a few. Yes, I agree, and I spoke of how they will persecute the Christians in my answer directly above. Many Christians seem to have an idea, because they have been taught to think that way, that none of them will suffer any kind of suffering, that they will never see any kind of tribulation at all. Many read into verses like 1Thess 1:10 that since Jesus saved us from the Wrath to come, that they will not see the wrath of any kind of tribulation. But that is not so, for the Wrath that Jesus saved us from is the Wrath of God and the Lake of Fire. And that is one of the arguments of the Pre-Trib Rapture people, which many others have rejected, including myself. (see also his notes below on this verse) The Christians today will indeed face tribulation, a tribulation which will separate the Sheep from the Goats, but Not the Great Tribulation of Daniel's prophecy. I will explain more below of why I believe this.

Let me say this. A few years ago, I was in the little church which I attended regularly, and I was at the altar with a group of people, and the Pastor, who was praying for healings, when I suddenly heard a machine gun firing and I saw all those around me fall to the ground, then it was over in a second, and we were all standing there again. About a year later during a revival at that church, I could not keep my eyes off of the altar, then the Lord spoke to me and said "Yes, that is where the people will be when the soldiers burst in the door and machine gun them down." Then the Lord said "But Not All of them will be Mine". A couple of years later, the Lord gave me a vision of that little church laying in a smoking heap of rubble, with one corner still partially standing. Then The Lord told me of things that He would have me do After that church building lay in ruins.

2. Second, Jesus once again tells us in Matthew 24:15,16:
"So when you see standing in the holy place the abomination that causes desolation spoken of through the prophet Daniel – let the reader understand – then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains"
The abomination that causes desolation is when the anti-christ is revealed and comes to power. Then the Lord tells us “LET THE READER UNDERSTAND” Understand what? To understand that this was being spoken to the Jews. The Jews who would be living to see this happen in Jerusalem, and they are being warned here that when they see it happen that they had better run for their lives, that even the few seconds used in running into the house to get something could be the difference of life or death for them. I understand that, for the Lord has told me that when He tells me to run, that I had better run, for if I obey instantly, then I will have turned a corner before the soldiers arrive, and they will not see me, but if I delay even by a couple of seconds that the solders would see me before I got around the corner, and I would be caught..

Or let me say this “This calls for wisdom. If anyone had insight, let him calculate the number of the beast, for it is man’s number. His number is 666” Revelation 13:18 This verse has been turned and twisted to mean anything that someone wants it to mean. Note that it Clearly says that it is the "Number of a Man"!! It does not say that it is the Number of a Man's Name!! But people try to see the number 666 in everything, and have tried to make that number apply to the name of most everyone from Hitler to the Pope, from the King of England to our President. Always claiming that they are the Antichrist. I do not claim to have insight as to who this man is. I placed a writing about this very thing above, for those who are interested, go back up toward the top of this section and you will find it. It tells you by the scriptures why the name of the Beast (Antichrist) will not be known before the Rapture.

then He goes on saying that those who are in Judea are to flee to the mountains. Who is he referring to? It is the people who have been obedient to God throughout their lives, his saints, his true body of Christ, and his remnant! Notice Judea has always been the heart of God; the same way spiritually so are the saints of the most high. And Jesus tells us to flee because they will kill you if you don’t hide. No it is not the saints, not the true body of Christ, It is the Jews! And only the Jews who are being spoken to here. This will be the remnant of the Jews. For during those last 7 years, the 7 years of the Great Tribulation Period, that Daniel's prophecy of the 70 weeks of years will be completed. During Those 7 years, the entire world goes back under the Jewish Mosaic Law, to fulfill the Word of God, It is after that 7 years that Jesus will return to the Earth to set up his earthly Kingdom, setting foot again on the Mount of Olives, and will then defeat the armies of the Antichrist at the battle of Armageddon.

A great example of this is in Occurance #935 when the Lord tells Raymond “As I was walking back toward the parking lot, the Lord said, "That's the way Christians are going to live. They are going to have to live in caves and hide themselves." Yes the Christians will have to go into hiding during the persecution. But this will be before the Great 7 year Tribulation period. And it will be upon us within the next couple of years. But who wants to hear that?? The End is closer than most everyone thinks. The Christians are being taught in this country that God is such a loving God that He would never let them go into anything like that.

I know that the Lord God has told me some of what I will go through for His Name sake in the next few years. And I will be in hiding.

3. Thessalonians 4 talks about the Rapture of the Church. Paul lets us know that the Lord himself will come down from heaven, with a loud command of the archangel and with the trumpet call of God. And then we are caught up in the clouds to the Lord in the air. 1 Thessalonians 4:13-18 That is certainly right, and I look forward to it, for the Lord has told me that I will still be alive when the Rapture takes place, and that I will go in the Rapture.

When you go back to Matthew 24, Jesus tells us what happens after the persecution. “At that time the sign of the Son of Man will appear in the sky, and all the nations of the earth will mourn. They will see the Son of man coming on the [u]clouds of the sky with power and great glory. And he will send his angels with a loud trumpet call, and they will gather his elect from the four winds, from one end of the heavens to the other. Matthew 24:30,31 [/u] Yep, that is the Rapture!

This is when the Rapture occurs, after the tribulation when Jesus himself comes back and gathers his remnant, his saints and the holy ones that obeyed God and were led by him to hide. And when people quote the Word saying “We are not appointed to wrath but to receive salvation through our Lord Jesus” (1 Thessalonians 5:9) they think this refers to the Pre Tribulation rapture. I spoke of this verse above, of the mis application of the meaning of the Wrath. It’s a false statement!Is it?? It all depends on just when the Great 7 year Tribulation, as given in the Book of Daniel, starts, doesn't it? There is nothing in the bible which says that we will not have some kind of tribulation before that, does it? History has shown that Christians all the way down throughout the centuries since the time of Jesus had severe tribulations. The Christians were persecuted during the first 300 years. History shows us that the Church persecuted and put to death thousands of Christians who refused to obey THEM, and even attempted to wipe out entire peoples who had, and used, bibles in their own language. England, for many years, persecuted anyone who owned a bible, or was caught reading one. Burned them at the stake. Hitler not only killed the Jews but also hunted down and killed many Christians also. Today around the world, Christians are being hunted down, imprisoned, tortured, many times killed. That is Tribulation, but who claims that it is the Great Tribulation of Daniel's Prophecy?? I have many records of this happening today, and this tribulation is getting worse by the week. That we will have tribulations does not mean that we will be here during the Great 7 year Tribulation. There are too many who confuse any tribulation with The Great 7 year Tribulation, believing that all tribulation just has to be during the Great 7 year Tribulation. That Great 7 year Tribulation period is also known as, and in the bible has been called "the time of Jacobs Trouble".

The wrath that we are not appointed to is eternal hell and the salvation we receive from Jesus is a place for us in heaven not an easy life on earth. There is no reason why Jesus, the begotten Son of God came down and suffered and laid down his life for us and we expect to have it easy. That’s just not the example that the Lord gave us when he was persecuted. Oh I agree with you 1000 % here. You are correct is stating that the wrath we are saved from is the Lake of Fire. God's Wrath. I spoke on this above.

4. It tells us in the book of Acts chapter 1:9 “After he said this, he was taken up before their very eyes, and a cloud hid him from their sight” then the two angels said to them as he disappeared. “Men of Galilee” they said, “why do you stand here looking into the sky? This same Jesus, who has been taken from you into heaven will come back in the same way you have seen him go into heaven”
My point is. When Jesus comes back clothed with the clouds to gather his people it will be very visible and everyone will see his presence in the clouds. That is the reason why all the nations will mourn. That is absolutely correct There will be many who will recognize it for what it is and will realize that they missed the Rapture of the Bride of Jesus Christ. However, we must also note that it is at that same spot that Jesus will return to the Earth to set up his Kingdom, and He will return to the earth then just as he left it, the angel said. He left in a cloud and he will return the same way, in a cloud. And that time will be different from the time when Jesus will return for His Bride in the clouds, but will not set foot on the earth at that time. Everyone will see Jesus return in the clouds to gather His Bride, but not everyone will see Jesus return in the clouds when He sets foot upon the earth again.

Biblically this cannot happen before the Tribulation! Oh Yes it can, and it will. For the tribulation you speak of here is the Great 7 year Tribulation. (and not just any old tribulation) That tribulation starts with the signing of a peace treaty, a Covenant, with many (Daniel 9:27). It does not say that the Covenant is only with the Jews, it says "with Many" which includes the entire world. The signing of that peace treaty brings the end of a war. Do you really believe that a war, and all that goes with it is not tribulation of some kind? I can not find anything in the bible which says that the Rapture cannot happen until that peace treaty is signed and the Antichrist is revealed. In fact I see the opposite, that we as Christians cannot be here when the Antichrist is revealed. Perhaps if you have a verse or two which says that we must wait until that time, then please let me see it. For that would mean that we would know just when the Rapture will take place, thereby having some people living a life of sin until they see that peace treaty signed, then attempting to come to the Lord before the Rapture they know is coming. There will be none of us that will know when the Rapture will take place, That Rapture can take place Anytime. Make note of the parable of the 10 Virgins, who waited without knowing when the Bridegroom would come. What the Bible does say, is that the Holy Spirit will leave this earth (and us with Him, for he will never leave us [John 14:16]) before the Antichrist will be revealed, (2Thess 2:7- 8 ) and the Antichrist will be revealed when he signs that 7 year peace treaty, which starts the 7 year Great Tribulation period, the period of the Jews last 7 years under Jewish Mosaic Law, as shown in Daniel's prophecy.

“They called to the mountains and the rocks, “Fall on us and hide us from the face of him who sits on the throne and from the wrath of the Lamb! For the great day of their wrath has come, and who can stand?” Revelation 6:16
God permits the persecution of his Church. If you look throughout the history of the bible, God permits persecution for the benefit of cleansing his people. The Temple of the Lord was destroyed by the gentiles twice in the Word of God, it shall be destroyed once again. His wrath begins with his Church first and then the world. Yes this is absolutely correct, the Lord does indeed permits persecution and tribulations as a means of cleansing His people, of chastising His people, to bring them back to him. And the verse of Rev. 6:16 quoted above will happen when the 6th seal is opened. I will speak on this at the end of these questions.

5. Also if you look throughout the book of revelation when God is giving wisdom to the 7 Churches you notice he tells the Churches the good deeds and the bad. And then he tells all of them besides the Church of Philadelphia if they overcome they will be greatly rewarded. Overcome what? To overcome exactly what Jesus says is wrong with that particular church. Each of these churches were actual churches at that time, and each one had a different problem in their church, which Jesus said that they must correct in order to overcome, else they would be cut off. In studying these 7 churches, it can be seen that these 7 churches also represents 7 different church ages, and also 7 different types of Christians. Looking back on the history of the Church, we can see that the church acted like, and responded, just like each of these churches, having the same type of problems. That puts us in the last church age now, the Laodicean church age, which is a luke warm church age. We have only to look around us to see how the Christians of today matches the description of the Laodicean church. I will not go into here, what each church had wrong with it that had to be corrected in order to overcome.

The last day deception of denying Jesus Christ as their savior. The church of Philadelphia is the spiritual remnant of God who will be protected by him throughout the Tribulation, the ones who “shall flee to the mountains.” The other ones will be captured and persecuted by the gentiles and as long as they overcome and stand fast they will be rewarded greatly by God. I believe that you are referring to The Book of Revelation 3:10 for they will be kept from the hour of temptation. Since their church age has passed, and we are now in the next church age of the Laodicean church, which makes it impossible for the Philadelphia church age to be present during the Great Tribulation Period. As well as the fact that there has never been an overlap of two different dispensations shown in the bible. It has always shown that as one dispensation came to an end and another started, there was no overlap, therefore, by this we can see that the dispensation of Grace (Christians) and the dispensation of the Law (Jewish Mosaic Law) cannot, and will not, overlap. The dispensation of Grace will come to an end as the dispensation of the Law restarts. Just as we saw that the dispensation of the Law was set aside while the dispensation of Grace is here. As for the Philadelphia church, we can see that they have been kept from the hour of temptation. For we see temptation all around us, temptations which were just not there a hundred years ago. This verse does not say that they will be kept from Tribulation. So you are assigning a meaning to these verses which the bible does not support.

6. Lastly, look at the history of the Church. Throughout 2000 years you notice, God allows persecution of his saints. Try teaching this doctrine to the Christians in muslim nations or communist China that they will disappear before any persecution shall come upon them. You are right here, for there has always been persecution of God's saints to one degree or another. The Christians in the nations you speak of, become Christians knowing that to become a Christian will probably cost them, and their families, their lives, and even many of them will have their families try to kill them themselves. They absolutely know that to become a Christian is to be persecuted for the name of Jesus. And they are willing to be imprisoned, beaten, tortured, put to death in order to follow Jesus. Just how many in this country of America will continue to follow Jesus when they know that they could be killed for it, that they could loose all their personal belongings, their homes, etc. I don't know, but all of us are about to find out very soon. For the Sheep and the Goats will be separated just as they have been in China, with the Sheep in hidden home churches, and the Goats in the Government organized and controlled churches in church buildings.

7. Let me conclude this. I do not mean to debate you in anyway Rev. but as a brother I just want to reveal to you what I have gained from reading the Word of God. Please post back to me and let me know your views and why you believe in the pre-trib rapture. Oh my brother, we are not in a debate. Each of us has now stated out position of why we believe as we do. Neither of us is trying to make the other change their beliefs. I absolutely believe in your P.S. below. I tell the people the same. For only God can insure that you know the absolute truth. And if you ask God, He will tell you.

God bless you always,

P.S. To anyone who reads this post. Please pray about this deeply. Don’t listen to me or Rev. Jack but listen to the Lord.


Now, let me add the following.

I was taught throughout my life, and as I went through the Seminary, that the 7 year Great Tribulation would start with the opening of the Seals of Revelation. But recently the Lord God, showed me that the opening of the Seals was not the start of the Great Tribulation, but that the Great Tribulation would start with the Trumpet jusgments. The Lord showed, and told, me that the 1st Seal has already been opened. The Antichrist is even now gaining political power, rising to a position of controlling the leaders of the world from behind the view of the outside world. The Antichrist is conquering by peaceful means as Rev. 6:2 shows. A bow, but no arrows. The next seal will be opened soon, and we know that one is War. And the prophecies of both Raymond Aguilera, and Thomas Gibson, shows us that the war will be brought upon America as a judgment against them for their sinful manor and their refusal to repent as a nation. And that this war will be started sometime between 2005 and 2010. And that this war will be nuclear in nature, and will be followed by an invasion of attacking armies who will hunt down and kill Christians and Jews. It is during this time that the Mark of the Beast will be put into force in their attempt to track down the Christians and the Jews. There will be many martyrs during this time. It is during this time that the Christians will know to refuse the mark of the beast. Throughout this war, the Antichrist will be controlling the leaders of the world but will not himself yet be revealed. The Lord has revealed through His Prophecies that it is toward the end of this war that there will come a great Revival. Millions will come to the Lord God Jesus Christ at that time, and then will come the Rapture.

We know that the following seals of Famine (3), the killing of one fourth of the earth's population (4) with sword, hunger, and the beast of the earth. These always follow along with a war, and will fall, virtually together.

Now I do not care if anyone chooses to not believe, for that is between them and God. I have given the warning that I was to give. I know what the Lord God has told me will happen to me during this time, how I will serve Him, and how I will suffer for Him, and has shown me my part in that great Revival. I know that there will be many who will laugh at what I have said here, but there will come a time when as they see things happening, that they will remember that they were told, remembering that they were warned. My lord has said to me "Even your friends think that you are a fool, that you are weird, and people will deride you, will ridicule you, will make fun of you, and you will be mocked." So be it, for I follow My Lord and God Jesus Christ. I only care what Jesus thinks of me. I have already had some persecution against me, and there will be much more.

My Lord God has told me that I will still be alive when the Rapture takes place, and will go in the Rapture. And shortly there after, the Lord told me that I will not see my 80th birthday on this earth. Be it know to you that I will be 71 years of age in one month, Feb. of 2005. And I do not know just when that Rapture will take place, I only know that it will be soon, and that it will be before the Great 7 year Tribulation period, which is the ending of the dispensation of the Law, then Jesus Returns to the Earth to set up His Kingdom, and we, the Bride of Christ will come with Him at that time.

May the Holy Lord Bless and keep each and every one of you who reads this message.

I thank you Corxmega11 for your post. I know that the Holy Lord is using you, and will continue to use you in a mighty way, and that you will indeed listen to Him as He instructs you.

Thank you.
I appreciate very much your comments and thoughts. A lot of things you have mentioned never came into my mind before when looking at the Rapture. All I know is that I will pray very hard about this and hopefully the Lord will confirm whatever knowledge was given to me. You will be in my prayers and hopefully I can be in yours also so that the Lord can keep our lanterns filled with oil that we may be ready for the gathering of his people.

God bless you always.

Rev Barr, I'm confused - would like you to consider these 2 sections of revelation from chapter 10 and 11

Revelation Chapter 10
10:4 - And when the seven thunders spoke, I was about to write; but I heard a voice from heaven say, “Seal up what the seven thunders have said and do not write it down.”
10:5 - Then the angel I had seen standing on the sea and on the land raised his right hand to heaven.
10:6 - And he swore by him who lives for ever and ever, who created the heavens and all that is in them, the earth and all that is in it, and the sea and all that is in it, and said, “There will be no more delay!
10:7 - But in the days when the seventh angel is about to sound his trumpet, the mystery of God will be accomplished, just as he announced to his servants the prophets.”

Revelation Chapter 11
11:15 - The seventh angel sounded his trumpet, and there were loud voices in heaven, which said: “The kingdom of the world has become the kingdom of our Lord and of his Christ, and he will reign for ever and ever.”
11:16 - And the twentyfour elders, who were seated on their thrones before God, fell on their faces and worshiped God,
11:17 - saying: “We give thanks to you, Lord God Almighty, the One who is and who was, because you have taken your great power and have begun to reign.
11:18 - The nations were angry; and your wrath has come. The time has come for judging the dead, and for rewarding your servants the prophets and your saints and those who reverence your name, both small and great– and for destroying those who destroy the earth.”

In revelation 10 it mentions a secret of God which will be accomplished at the 7th trumpets blowing. on top of that if we were still here till the 7th trumpet we would surely endure hardships and tribulation, since we are in the tribulation at that time, but we would miss the wrath of God in the form of the seven bowls. What made me look back into revelation was this Prophecy from inhiskingdom.net - Book 1 : Day 66

"When the seven thunders, when they ring out their reply, when they state that I am starting to come, starting to make my journey, starting to return, then my people will be getting ready. They will be waiting for me, they will be watching for me, and my people will see me. Every eye will see me, every eye. Every eye will see me, everyone of my people will see me. Because they will see me, but they might not understand me, if they are not ready, if they have not been able to hear the thunders reply, then I will not be able to take them with me. They will be left here on earth to go through the wrath of my Father. The wrath is not for them, but they have not obeyed me or listened to me that they can return with me. These ones that die in the wrath, they will be as the ones that died in the flood. They will still have a chance to come to me. They will still have a chance to live with us. I am the Messiah. I have spoken. This is complete truth. "

The inhiskindom.net prophecies hasn't been mentioned once since i have been visiting this forum, either people don't know about them or they do know about them and they believe they are false. I asked God to help me find himself, and after talking to me on 3 seperate occasions through others who were filled in the spirit at church, i found these 3 prophets on the internet - Ray, Gibson and Norb who does the inhiskingdom.net site. Those sites have tought me that i can have a relationship with the Lord more than just visiting church on sundays, that everything that was said was true. Before you dismiss the above prophecy please go to either his site (inhiskingdom.net) or mine at prophecyarchive.com and look at the 'secrets of his kingdom' prophecies, pray that the Lord tell you the truth about this prophet, as mans knowledge can cloud that of which is Gods knowledge.

let me know your thoughts ~ eric

I personally believe Norb Hackman to be legitimate.

Hi Rev. Barr,

By reading this part of your message, it maid me want to share something that happend to me before my conversion to Christ. I posted it once on the old prophecylink site. But when I sent a message to Ray saying that I did not know if it was from the Lord, it got removed. Here it is.

It was soon after the World Trade Center Attack. I was waking up in the morning. Then, I could see people living in tents. They were in some kind of very green forest. They seemed happy. Suddenly, a very large and white 2013 blinked over the scene like on a TV screen. I was very suprised at that 2013. Cause the number really meant nothing to me.

Now, since you say that the Lord told you you would not pass your 80's on this earth and that you approach 71. This makes 9 years. We add 9 to 2005 we get 2014. This means that the rapture should be before 2014.

So, this occurence surely back ups your message. But, I just do not understand why the people in tents? Have any idea?

God Bless You All

Sylvain

Sylvain wrote:


Hi Sylvain

Oh its fun playing with dates, especialy when we don't have a clue to their meaning.

I looked at that also, and can see that the very latest that the Lord can be coming for His Bride can be no later than the start of 2014. That is the latest acording to what the Lord has said to me. How soon before that is unknown. But also, between now and then, there will be one heck of a lot of people who will die, before that rapture takes place, so everyone had better be ready to meet the Lord for their Judgment, which could happen at an instant notice. Very unexpected.

So what is the meaning of all these dates between now and then?

Raymond's Prophecy #851 given on 18, Jan. 1996, gave the number 15 then showed the number 5 as being an important part of the number 15. I note (not from the Lord, but from myself) that George Bush of the Republican party was elected to President of the united States, Jan. 2001, almost exactly 5 years from the date of the prophecy. The 15 year point, or 10 years after Bush becomes President, would be the date of Jan. 2011. So something very significant will happen at that time. What it will be is unknown at this time.

I have not taken the time to look up prophecy numbers, but prophecy was given that Bush would be re-elected, which did happen and he started his second term in Jan. 2005. The end of that term of office would normaly come to an end in Jan. 2009.

However The prophecies continues, that Bush will be murdered sometime during his second term in office, stabbed by someone he trust. The date of which is not given. And Vice President Cheney will become president, and prophecy says that he will be the last American president before the Lord returns. How this plays into the date you saw of 2013 goes this way.

Cheney finishes out the term of Bush, then would be elected president of the U.S. in Jan. 2009, (if there is still elections then) and that term would normaly come to an end on Jan. 2013. And he probably would be re-elected again, if there is even elections at that time, else he would just continue in the office.

Now I see that other factors play into these dates. The war against the United States, and world wide, will start, acording to prophecy sometime between 2005 and 2010. Then comes the invasion of the U.S. , persecution of Christians and Jews during the early part of this war, then somewhere along during this persecution will see the people turn from persecuting Christians and start embracing Jesus Christ, which will be the greatest Revival we have ever known.

Prophecy then tells us that after the people of the U.S has turned to The Lord, that the Lord God will give the U.S. a new weapon which will win the war for America.

Now how we try to fit all these dates together in the correct pattern chronologically is an unknown. And I can only guess for The Lord has not given me anything on it.

There was just given a prophecy of "2 years" by Oyster77's wife, which I feel fits right into the total pattern. so something significant will happen 2 years from now. I could speculate that two years from now would be when Bush will die, but that would only be wild speculation. I could also speculate that 2 years from now would be when the War against America will start, but that again would only be wild speculation.

But what I can see is that by the year 2013, that the war would be either over, or coming to an end, and I would speculate that the war would be just coming to an end, with the invasion forces gone, and the greatest majority of the people left alive in America would now be Christians. That is enough to be happy about. After the nuclear war and the invasion, and persecution, there would be virtually few homes or buildings left standing, so tents would be a viabable option for people to live in.

eric wrote:


Brother Eric,

Let me say that the Book of Revelation is the toughest piece of Spiritual Meat that you can ever sink your teeth into. It is virtually impossible to place any kind of chronological order to how it is written. Much of what is written is happening at virtually the same time, or so close together that it cannot be separated. And there are sections where it suddenly jumps back to a time much before what was just written about. Much like the old western movies (which us old timers remember, and the new kids never saw.) where the settlers were under attack. Showing us this scene, then jumping to the Calvary rushing to the rescue, then suddenly you are in an entirely different place, different people, different things happening, the people talking about something which seem totally unrelated to the story, and it flashes across the screen "Meanwhile Back at the Ranch." That was all well and good in the movies, but the when the Book of Revelation does this jumping from scene to scene, and from this time to that time, and back to the time before, it does not warn you that it is doing so.

I know that the ministers, pastors, who went through a seminary will agree. As I was studying the Bible in the seminary, none of us was allowed to study the Book of Revelation until we had already studied close to half of the Bible, because it is totally impossible to understand any part of that Book without first knowing all the other writings throughout the Bible which explained, through prophecy, what would be happening in the Book of Revelation, even then, it is so very confusing. I taught the Book of Revelation, made up courses on it, and when I go back and look at those teachings, I see where I was wrong in so many places that I would have to throw out more than half of that course that I taught.

I read the "Prophecy ??" from "inhiskingdom.net" book 1, page 66 as a False Prophecy. And as a False prophecy, then not one word that he writes or speaks can be trusted to be the truth. We are warned to stay away from the False Prophets, no matter how good some of what they say may sound..

You may ask, How is this a False Prophecy?? It is a False Prophecy because it is in conflict with what the Bible teaches.

Let me show you why this is a False Prophecy! Lets go to Matthew 25:1-13 The Parable of the 10 Virgins.
KJV wrote:

I know that you have all heard so very many sermons built and given about this parable. The one sermon which I have Never heard preached or taught is on verses 10, 11, and 12

The virgins are the pure, only the pure are there. These 10 are the true Sheep of the Lord. But as you know, and have heard, only 5 were ready to go with the Bridegroom, and the other 5 were not ready, there was something which holds them back.

So what are they looking and waiting for? We know, for it tells us that they are waiting for the "Bridegroom"!

And who is the Bridegroom? The Bridegroom is Jesus Christ who is coming for his Bride. The great catching away, which we call the Rapture. The Bridegroom arrives and we see in verse 10 that when he came that the Bridegroom took those who were ready and together they went to the marriage.

But then what does it say?? The door was shut!!

Then what happened to those who were left behind?? Verse 11 tells us, they came pounding on the closed door, begging to be let in.

But what did the Bridegroom say?? Verse 12, "But he answered and said, Verily I say unto you, [u]I know you not."

Not one of those who was left behind was ever allowed to go in to where the Bride and Bridegroom had gone!!!![/u] and that was heaven

The last verse 13 gives you a warning, you had better watch and be ready.

This is clear, if you miss the Rapture for any reason, the doors of heaven is closed to you for all of eternity. There will be NO Second chance.

Contrary to the many teachings today, that you do not have to worry about missing the Rapture, for you can all come to the Lord afterward and still get into heaven, you will just have a harder time of it. That is such a lie that will send millions to the fires of Hell, because they will not be ready when Jesus comes for His Bride (the Rapture).

And those verses in the Bible, makes the "Prophecy" from "inhiskingdom.net" book 1, page 66 as a False Prophecy, for it states the false teaching that you can still go to heaven if you miss the Rapture, In direct conflict to what the Bible, the True Word of God, tells us.

Thanks for replying Rev Barr, i can't prove or dispute the inhiskingdom.net prophecies, however i do have another comment about revelation. I always looked to being shut out is being shut out of the rapture, not heaven, as the bible makes reference to many people being harvested after the rapture (in its straightforward timeline)

One quick thought, if there is no hope for anyone who misses the rapture, then why would the bible speak so passionatly on not recieving the mark of the beast? Also in Revelation 14:9-13 it mentions...
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9 - A third angel followed them and said in a loud voice: “If anyone worships the beast and his image and receives his mark on the forehead or on the hand,
10 - he, too, will drink of the wine of God's fury, which has been poured full strength into the cup of his wrath. He will be tormented with burning sulfur in the presence of the holy angels and of the Lamb.
11 - And the smoke of their torment rises for ever and ever. There is no rest day or night for those who worship the beast and his image, or for anyone who receives the mark of his name.”
12 - This calls for patient endurance on the part of the saints who obey God's commandments and remain faithful to Jesus.

13 - Then I heard a voice from heaven say, “Write: Blessed are the dead who die in the Lord from now on.”

“Yes,” says the Spirit, “they will rest from their labor, for their deeds will follow them.”
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And if we were raptured before the tribulation started, and if you believe in a pre-tribulation rapture, then the rapture has already happened at this point and all these people who are dying in the Lord are dying in vein and their deeds mentioned above are going to hell with them. Right after those verses it mentions a great harvest

It also seems to mention that if you receive the mark then you are doomed for all eternity, of which we all believe - "There is no rest day or night for those who worship the beast and his image, or for anyone who receives the mark of his name"

I have listened to many people try to talk about revelation and they all have different views, even Ray has the bowls of wrath durring the 1000 years, on a graph listed on prophey.org. I'm not saying his viewpoint is wrong, but with so many different viewpoints its hard to state what is fact and what is man saying what is fact, especially when mans facts are used to prove and disprove other information.

If you could provide us with a timeline of how you think Revelation will pan out, or even why you don't believe in a straightforward approach (minus 'scene switching', as the order of events don't change, they're just put on hold for another story to be told which is happening at the same time) that would help at least me out a ton, as i don't see why a straightforward approach to revelation is not possible

On another note i would take a deeper look into the inhiskingdom.net prophecies, ask God to show you if they are right or not. I wouldn't use information that has been decided on by man, quoted in your reply - "when I go back and look at those teachings, I see where I was wrong in so many places that I would have to throw out more than half of that course that I taught." Again i'm not saying you are wrong, and also i am no bible scholar, but for the last 2 years i have been cross referencing the inhiskingdom prophecies with the bible and have found no error in all 100 of them, although there were a lot of errors in my own thinking beforehand, beliefs that the world had put there saying that's the way it was, but when i looked for myself those facts were twisted based on what was the real truth in the bible.

I may be preaching to the choir, or i may not be. I write this incase i am not, for i only know you from your website and our conversations here. I just ask that you take a 2nd look at it. Incase that i am preaching to the choir do not be offended, i do this only to help us all better understand

*This is my own personal opinion of course, everyone should read the bible and make their own decisions*

Oh my brother Eric,

Who am I to burst your bubble. You go ahead and believe just anything that you want to believe.

I told you what My Lord God Jesus Christ has told me in words of knowledge. I will say no more.

Some of your questions have been answered in posts which I have previously put up, and there is no reason to repeat them and the scriptures which back them up. I had explained the difference between the tribulations what are now upon the earth and the judgment tribulations that are yet to come BEFORE the Great 7 year Tribulation. But you seem to have brushed those aside also.

On the course I wrote before, the interpertation of Man will always be wrong, it is only God's interpretation which will be correct. It is up to each of us to listen to God, instead of listening to ourselves or other men. If you have doubt, take it to God!!

From the Holy Lord God wrote:

I'll pray about it, and see where i am right and where i am wrong.

Also let me ask, that message from the Lord, was that specifically for what i had posted? or something that you received before and found it to be appropriate here?