I have a question about the rapture, do any of Raymond’s prophecies talk about it. I don’t think I have read any that do. I bought all the books, but gave them to my pastor, who has not read them or returned them. I feel we will be here, but my pastors and church for that matter, think we will not experiance the seven year tribulation, they think maybe we might go through the first three and half years.

I have debated this with them many times. If people are being taught that we are getting out of here and we don’t, will they be to attached to this world to withstand the presser, will they be ready spiritually when things get really bad, will they be strong enough, have they prepared. I have noticed that people get really upset when you tell them, we might be here. They are really disturbed by it. I have to ask why it bothers them so much. They seem to desperately want and need to believe it. I want to believe we will be raptured out. My flesh really wants to believe that.

I usually end up telling my pastor it would be wise to hope for the best - prepare for the worst. If things were going to get bad the enemy would want people believing they won’t be here. I tell them I have faith that God will protect his people through the tribulation. That doesn’t seem to comfort them as much as getting out of here does. I don’t get a right feeling when preachers talk about the tribulation period, then say we won’t be here. We’ll be partying in heaven.


Mar Mar Rae

Read Matthew 24 and discern. Jesus speaks of the end of times. Pray over it and find the Truth for yourself of the rapture.

Matt 30 speaks of the coming of the Son of Man. There is not other time He mentions that He comes but once. To gather His elect. This is after 3.5 years of Great Tribulation. You and I will see the sun and the moon darken before the return of the Son of Man. Those that endure to this time will be saved.

But please discern for yourself and do not listen to those that would tell you I come in the Name of Christ and yet they bare false witness. "[5] For many shall come in my name, saying, I am Christ; and shall deceive many." Seek God in this and heed His Calling of what shall come. Seek the Word to discern the truth and divide spirit and bone. Know that your enemy is cunning and will use all means even your friends to deceive you. Only the Word of God can make itself revealed unto you through the Holy Spirit. Seek the Kingdom of God through the Word of God and all shall be added unto you. The Word of God is Jesus Christ. He is the answer to your question of pre-trib, during-trib and post-trib rapture...

From what I have read I believe that we will see half of the Great Trib before we are taken up to be with the Son of Man. We will see and face many horrors, but this is the refining and the separating of the chaff from the wheat. But whenever the rapture comes is really of no consequence because we cannot change His Timing of when He takes us or when He comes back to the earth because all is in His Good Timing and not of our wants and desires of when it should happen. Be at peace and know that Jesus is enough and that God is in Control of this little planet. Jesus is Enough for all of us. Amen!

MerMer Rae wrote:


Hi Mar Mar Rae,

I have not done a search in the Prophecies of Raymond, but I offer the following.

There are so very many different versions of when the Great Catching Away of the Saints (Rapture) will happen. A study shows that both the Pre-trib crowd, and the Mid-trib crowd, use many of the same scripture verses, and place a different interpretation upon them.

I believe that we will be taken out before the Great Tribulation will start, but my belief is not based upon most of the scripture verses usually quoted. But is based upon what the Entire Bible says.

But understand, that because we will not be here during the Great Tribulation, does not mean that we Christians will not go through very serious and heavy tribulations, and persecutions. I fully agree that those who believe that the Rapture will take us out of pain and suffering are entirely wrong.

The reasons that I give for my Pre-Trib Rapture position have previously been posted to ProphecyLink previously, (that is many of my reasons, but not all of them.) Therefore I will post below the parts which I have responded to others which plays a part in answering your question.


Posted: Sun Jan 09, 2005 5:33 pm By Godsword Post subject: Re: An Interesting Site

Kim wrote:


Gee, that is really a good trick, to be able to give the name of the Beast, for the Beast is the Antichrist, and God's Word tells us that who he is will not be revealed until after the Holy Spirit and all of the Bride of Christ has left this earth in the Rapture.
_________________
With the Love of Jesus
Rev. Jack Barr


Posted: Tue Jan 11, 2005 12:22 am by Godsword

Kim wrote:

It is the Bible which tells us when the Beast, or Antichrist, will be revealed, or named. Any reference to the number 666 is misleading, for everyone that I have seen try to apply the 666 to a person, or someone's name, is only blowing smoke and vapor. For the Bible does not say that the number of 666 applies to the name, it only says that it is the number of a man, Where does it say that it is the number of his name?? Everyone from Hitler to the Pope has had it claimed, that their name count equaled 666, and therefore they had to be the Beast (Antichrist). It is only His Number, and NOT the number of his name.

Revelation 13:18 Here is wisdom. Let him that hath understanding count the number of the beast: for it is the number of a man; and his number is Six hundred threescore and six.

Since this is what the Bible tells us, then how is it possible for any man to determine who the Antichrist (Beast) is, before the following happens????

2 Thes. 2:2-4; 6-8
2 That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand.
3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come,[b] except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;[/b]
4 Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.
6 And now ye know what withholdeth that he might be revealed in his time.
7 For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way.
8 And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming:


The Word in the Bible tells us that the Beast, called the Antichrist, will Not be revealed until several things happen first.

This is the first condition that must be met for him to be revealed

2 Thes. Speaks of the coming of the Lord God Jesus Christ to set up his Kingdom on the Earth. Two things are given here, first there will be a great falling away, from Christ. That has Not happened yet! And after that great falling away, Then will the "man of sin" who is the "Beast", who is the "Antichrist", will be Revealed. Until you see the great falling away, the Beast will not be revealed..

The second condition that must take place before the Beast can be revealed.

"Only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way." And then shall that Wicked be revealed. "He that letteth" is holding him back, only allowing (or letting) the Man of Sin, the Beast, the Antichrist, to go only so far, and no farther, until the one who letteth is taken out of the way. Who is the one who letteth? That is the Holy Spirit of the Most Holy Lord God Jehovah. This is the same Holy Spirit which is given to every Christian, and this is the same Holy Spirit which Jesus said would never leave us.

John 14:16 And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever;

So what we have is this: As a Christian, you have the Holy Ghost, (Comforter, Spirit) in you, and the Holy Ghost will never leave you. So, when the Holy Ghost leaves this world, this Earth, (taken out of the way) we go with Him. This happens at the Rapture, and it is right after the Rapture that the Beast (Antichrist) will be revealed. This Second condition before the Beast is revealed is the Rapture, and it has not happened yet.


Therefore, I can say with perfect confidence, that according to the Bible, No one on this earth will be able to tell you the name of the Beast, until after these two conditions are met. And neither one of them has happened yet.

And I personally intend to be in that Rapture, so I don't care who he is, or what his name is. I don't want to be here on this earth to find out, for that would mean that I missed the Rapture, and anyone who misses the Rapture will be forever lost. So the Bible says.

Oh I know, that is not what the majority of people teach, they think that you, and them, can go all the way to Armageddon, and then decide to join with the Lord God. But inspite of what they teach, the Lord Says different.
_________________
With the Love of Jesus
Rev. Jack Barr


Posted: Wed Jan 12, 2005 3:55 am by Godsword

Hi there corxmega11

Thank you, you have a very well thought out and documented letter. I appreciate that.

Instead of copying your letter directly above my answer, I am going to make it part of my answer so there will be no confusion.

To begin with, I would like to give to those who are not familiar with the different positions of when the Rapture will take place, a little history which corxmega11 and I am both familiar with.

• There are those who believe that the Rapture will take place Before the 7 year Great Tribulation period as given in the prophecies of Daniel, this is the Pre-Tribulation position.

• Some believe that the Rapture will happen in the middle of the Tribulation period, this is the Mid Tribulation position..

• Some believe that the Rapture will happen at the end of the Tribulation period, right before Jesus returns, this is the Post Tribulation position.

• Lately there are some who have come to the belief that the Rapture will happen part way between the Pre-Trib and the Mid-Trib, and others who believe the Rapture will happen part way between the Mid-Trib and the Post Trib.

I have no intention of going through all of the scriptures which have been quoted in support of each position.

Corxmega11 has good documentation and a well thought out letter, so I will answer only the questions put forth here. I will place all of my answers in a Red text. It is my intention to only answer as to Why I believe as I do, and not to challenge anyone else's belief. It really does not matter when the Rapture takes place as long as you are ready to go when it does happen.

Hello Rev.

Please bear with me on this one. I do not mean to debate you in any way about the Pre-Tribulation rapture but I just want to know your views and how you think this it is accurate with the Holy Word. I will give you my reasons why I believe the Rapture occurs after the tribulation not before and I hope you can reply and let me know how you feel and give me reasons why you believe different. God bless you and as always, pray about this. I totally agree with you on this.

1. First thing when Jesus speaks about the latter days in Matthew 24 he tells us watch out that no one deceives you. Because many will come in His name claming they are In Christ but really aren’t. Matthew 24:4,5 Yes, the verse says that they will say that "I Am Christ", and there are some who are doing that right now. An example of that right now is "Maitreya" who is claiming to "Be the Christ returned". And he has a very large following around the world, and doing signs and wonders. But I do agree that there are many who come in the Name of Jesus Christ who are Not of Christ, and they do indeed lead many away from Jesus by preaching ANOTHER GOSPEL.. And they abound more and more as these days go by.

He goes on telling us:
“Then you will be handed over to be persecuted and put to death, and you will be hated by all nations because of me.” Matthew 24:9 Now. Who is Jesus referring to? The people who were “Not Raptured” and became the saints??? No! For if we place this verse back into contents, we see that Jesus is listing a series of events which will happen, yet all these things happening are as Jesus Says "All these are the beginning of sorrows". Wars all over the world, which is happening now. Famines, which we are having in many parts of the world right now on massive scales. Pestilence's, which the good people of the earth are fighting right now, Pestilence's which have returned in forms from which they no longer have cures for. It is here now. Earthquakes, can there be any doubts that the earthquakes are coming more frequent, and much more severe, in these days? We have only to open the Newspaper to read of them. But all these are only the beginning, Then comes persecution of Christians!! Today there are Christians ALL around the world who are being persecuted to death for the name of Jesus. Hunted down like animals. Almost every nation on earth has some form of Christian persecution Today, and that includes the United States of America. In this country it is becoming a crime to even preach the Word of God in some places. Ministers are being thrown into Jail in this country. Christians in the U.S. are being restricted as to what they can do, and as to what they can say, in public. It will not be long in this country of the U.S. when Christians will all be imprisoned, or put to death, when it will be a crime to have a bible, or any Christian literature of any kind. No, this verse Matthew 24:9 is not speaking of those who missed the Rapture, and it is not speaking of Christians who are in the middle of the Great Tribulation. It is speaking of us right NOW. The Christians who will suffer BEFORE the Great Tribulation, even before the Great Revival which is coming before the Rapture.

The Lord tells us clearly in his Word:
“If the world hates you, keep in mind that it hated me first.” John 15:18 “Remember the words I spoke to you: No Servant is greater than his mater. If they persecuted me, they will persecute you also.” John 15:20 If you read the gospels in the Bible you notice that every warning that Jesus gives to the people is also a prophecy. Jesus does not give idle warnings.
Also many many many prophecies given to Raymond tell us to prepare for the day of persecution of the Body of Christ is coming. I.E. #686 #671 #73 these are just a few. Yes, I agree, and I spoke of how they will persecute the Christians in my answer directly above. Many Christians seem to have an idea, because they have been taught to think that way, that none of them will suffer any kind of suffering, that they will never see any kind of tribulation at all. Many read into verses like 1Thess 1:10 that since Jesus saved us from the Wrath to come, that they will not see the wrath of any kind of tribulation. But that is not so, for the Wrath that Jesus saved us from is the Wrath of God and the Lake of Fire. And that is one of the arguments of the Pre-Trib Rapture people, which many others have rejected, including myself. (see also his notes below on this verse) The Christians today will indeed face tribulation, a tribulation which will separate the Sheep from the Goats, but Not the Great Tribulation of Daniel's prophecy. I will explain more below of why I believe this.

Let me say this. A few years ago, I was in the little church which I attended regularly, and I was at the altar with a group of people, and the Pastor, who was praying for healings, when I suddenly heard a machine gun firing and I saw all those around me fall to the ground, then it was over in a second, and we were all standing there again. About a year later during a revival at that church, I could not keep my eyes off of the altar, then the Lord spoke to me and said "Yes, that is where the people will be when the soldiers burst in the door and machine gun them down." Then the Lord said "But Not All of them will be Mine". A couple of years later, the Lord gave me a vision of that little church laying in a smoking heap of rubble, with one corner still partially standing. Then The Lord told me of things that He would have me do After that church building lay in ruins.

2. Second, Jesus once again tells us in Matthew 24:15,16:
"So when you see standing in the holy place the abomination that causes desolation spoken of through the prophet Daniel – let the reader understand – then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains"
The abomination that causes desolation is when the anti-christ is revealed and comes to power. Then the Lord tells us “LET THE READER UNDERSTAND” Understand what? To understand that this was being spoken to the Jews. The Jews who would be living to see this happen in Jerusalem, and they are being warned here that when they see it happen that they had better run for their lives, that even the few seconds used in running into the house to get something could be the difference of life or death for them. I understand that, for the Lord has told me that when He tells me to run, that I had better run, for if I obey instantly, then I will have turned a corner before the soldiers arrive, and they will not see me, but if I delay even by a couple of seconds that the solders would see me before I got around the corner, and I would be caught..

Or let me say this “This calls for wisdom. If anyone had insight, let him calculate the number of the beast, for it is man’s number. His number is 666” Revelation 13:18 This verse has been turned and twisted to mean anything that someone wants it to mean. Note that it Clearly says that it is the "Number of a Man"!! It does not say that it is the Number of a Man's Name!! But people try to see the number 666 in everything, and have tried to make that number apply to the name of most everyone from Hitler to the Pope, from the King of England to our President. Always claiming that they are the Antichrist. I do not claim to have insight as to who this man is. I placed a writing about this very thing above, for those who are interested, go back up toward the top of this section and you will find it. It tells you by the scriptures why the name of the Beast (Antichrist) will not be known before the Rapture.

then He goes on saying that those who are in Judea are to flee to the mountains. Who is he referring to? It is the people who have been obedient to God throughout their lives, his saints, his true body of Christ, and his remnant! Notice Judea has always been the heart of God; the same way spiritually so are the saints of the most high. And Jesus tells us to flee because they will kill you if you don’t hide. No it is not the saints, not the true body of Christ, It is the Jews! And only the Jews who are being spoken to here. This will be the remnant of the Jews. For during those last 7 years, the 7 years of the Great Tribulation Period, that Daniel's prophecy of the 70 weeks of years will be completed. During Those 7 years, the entire world goes back under the Jewish Mosaic Law, to fulfill the Word of God, It is after that 7 years that Jesus will return to the Earth to set up his earthly Kingdom, setting foot again on the Mount of Olives, and will then defeat the armies of the Antichrist at the battle of Armageddon.

A great example of this is in Occurance #935 when the Lord tells Raymond “As I was walking back toward the parking lot, the Lord said, "That's the way Christians are going to live. They are going to have to live in caves and hide themselves." Yes the Christians will have to go into hiding during the persecution. But this will be before the Great 7 year Tribulation period. And it will be upon us within the next couple of years. But who wants to hear that?? The End is closer than most everyone thinks. The Christians are being taught in this country that God is such a loving God that He would never let them go into anything like that.

I know that the Lord God has told me some of what I will go through for His Name sake in the next few years. And I will be in hiding.

3. Thessalonians 4 talks about the Rapture of the Church. Paul lets us know that the Lord himself will come down from heaven, with a loud command of the archangel and with the trumpet call of God. And then we are caught up in the clouds to the Lord in the air. 1 Thessalonians 4:13-18 That is certainly right, and I look forward to it, for the Lord has told me that I will still be alive when the Rapture takes place, and that I will go in the Rapture.

When you go back to Matthew 24, Jesus tells us what happens after the persecution. “At that time the sign of the Son of Man will appear in the sky, and all the nations of the earth will mourn. They will see the Son of man coming on the clouds of the sky with power and great glory. And he will send his angels with a loud trumpet call, and they will gather his elect from the four winds, from one end of the heavens to the other. Matthew 24:30,31 Yep, that is the Rapture!

This is when the Rapture occurs, after the tribulation when Jesus himself comes back and gathers his remnant, his saints and the holy ones that obeyed God and were led by him to hide. And when people quote the Word saying “We are not appointed to wrath but to receive salvation through our Lord Jesus” (1 Thessalonians 5:9) they think this refers to the Pre Tribulation rapture. I spoke of this verse above, of the mis application of the meaning of the Wrath. It’s a false statement! Is it?? It all depends on just when the Great 7 year Tribulation, as given in the Book of Daniel, starts, doesn't it? There is nothing in the bible which says that we will not have some kind of tribulation before that, does it? History has shown that Christians all the way down throughout the centuries since the time of Jesus had severe tribulations. The Christians were persecuted during the first 300 years. History shows us that the Church persecuted and put to death thousands of Christians who refused to obey THEM, and even attempted to wipe out entire peoples who had, and used, bibles in their own language. England, for many years, persecuted anyone who owned a bible, or was caught reading one. Burned them at the stake. Hitler not only killed the Jews but also hunted down and killed many Christians also. Today around the world, Christians are being hunted down, imprisoned, tortured, many times killed. That is Tribulation, but who claims that it is the Great Tribulation of Daniel's Prophecy?? I have many records of this happening today, and this tribulation is getting worse by the week. That we will have tribulations does not mean that we will be here during the Great 7 year Tribulation. There are too many who confuse any tribulation with The Great 7 year Tribulation, believing that all tribulation just has to be during the Great 7 year Tribulation. That Great 7 year Tribulation period is also known as, and in the bible has been called "the time of Jacobs Trouble".

The wrath that we are not appointed to is eternal hell and the salvation we receive from Jesus is a place for us in heaven not an easy life on earth. There is no reason why Jesus, the begotten Son of God came down and suffered and laid down his life for us and we expect to have it easy. That’s just not the example that the Lord gave us when he was persecuted. Oh I agree with you 1000 % here. You are correct is stating that the wrath we are saved from is the Lake of Fire. God's Wrath. I spoke on this above.

4. It tells us in the book of Acts chapter 1:9 “After he said this, he was taken up before their very eyes, and a cloud hid him from their sight” then the two angels said to them as he disappeared. “Men of Galilee” they said, “why do you stand here looking into the sky? This same Jesus, who has been taken from you into heaven will come back in the same way you have seen him go into heaven”
My point is. When Jesus comes back clothed with the clouds to gather his people it will be very visible and everyone will see his presence in the clouds. That is the reason why all the nations will mourn. That is absolutely correct There will be many who will recognize it for what it is and will realize that they missed the Rapture of the Bride of Jesus Christ. However, we must also note that it is at that same spot that Jesus will return to the Earth to set up his Kingdom, and He will return to the earth then just as he left it, the angel said. He left in a cloud and he will return the same way, in a cloud. And that time will be different from the time when Jesus will return for His Bride in the clouds, but will not set foot on the earth at that time. Everyone will see Jesus return in the clouds to gather His Bride, but not everyone will see Jesus return in the clouds when He sets foot upon the earth again.

Biblically this cannot happen before the Tribulation! Oh Yes it can, and it will. For the tribulation you speak of here is the Great 7 year Tribulation. (and not just any old tribulation) That tribulation starts with the signing of a peace treaty, a Covenant, with many (Daniel 9:27). It does not say that the Covenant is only with the Jews, it says "with Many" which includes the entire world. The signing of that peace treaty brings the end of a war. Do you really believe that a war, and all that goes with it is not tribulation of some kind? I can not find anything in the bible which says that the Rapture cannot happen until that peace treaty is signed and the Antichrist is revealed. In fact I see the opposite, that we as Christians cannot be here when the Antichrist is revealed. Perhaps if you have a verse or two which says that we must wait until that time, then please let me see it. For that would mean that we would know just when the Rapture will take place, thereby having some people living a life of sin until they see that peace treaty signed, then attempting to come to the Lord before the Rapture they know is coming. There will be none of us that will know when the Rapture will take place, That Rapture can take place Anytime. Make note of the parable of the 10 Virgins, who waited without knowing when the Bridegroom would come. What the Bible does say, is that the Holy Spirit will leave this earth (and us with Him, for he will never leave us [John 14:16]) before the Antichrist will be revealed, (2Thess 2:7- 8 ) and the Antichrist will be revealed when he signs that 7 year peace treaty, which starts the 7 year Great Tribulation period, the period of the Jews last 7 years under Jewish Mosaic Law, as shown in Daniel's prophecy.

“They called to the mountains and the rocks, “Fall on us and hide us from the face of him who sits on the throne and from the wrath of the Lamb! For the great day of their wrath has come, and who can stand?” Revelation 6:16
God permits the persecution of his Church. If you look throughout the history of the bible, God permits persecution for the benefit of cleansing his people. The Temple of the Lord was destroyed by the gentiles twice in the Word of God, it shall be destroyed once again. His wrath begins with his Church first and then the world. Yes this is absolutely correct, the Lord does indeed permits persecution and tribulations as a means of cleansing His people, of chastising His people, to bring them back to him. And the verse of Rev. 6:16 quoted above will happen when the 6th seal is opened. I will speak on this at the end of these questions.

5. Also if you look throughout the book of revelation when God is giving wisdom to the 7 Churches you notice he tells the Churches the good deeds and the bad. And then he tells all of them besides the Church of Philadelphia if they overcome they will be greatly rewarded. Overcome what? To overcome exactly what Jesus says is wrong with that particular church. Each of these churches were actual churches at that time, and each one had a different problem in their church, which Jesus said that they must correct in order to overcome, else they would be cut off. In studying these 7 churches, it can be seen that these 7 churches also represents 7 different church ages, and also 7 different types of Christians. Looking back on the history of the Church, we can see that the church acted like, and responded, just like each of these churches, having the same type of problems. That puts us in the last church age now, the Laodicean church age, which is a luke warm church age. We have only to look around us to see how the Christians of today matches the description of the Laodicean church. I will not go into here, what each church had wrong with it that had to be corrected in order to overcome.

The last day deception of denying Jesus Christ as their savior. The church of Philadelphia is the spiritual remnant of God who will be protected by him throughout the Tribulation, the ones who “shall flee to the mountains.” The other ones will be captured and persecuted by the gentiles and as long as they overcome and stand fast they will be rewarded greatly by God. I believe that you are referring to The Book of Revelation 3:10 for they will be kept from the hour of temptation. Since their church age has passed, and we are now in the next church age of the Laodicean church, which makes it impossible for the Philadelphia church age to be present during the Great Tribulation Period. As well as the fact that there has never been an overlap of two different dispensations shown in the bible. It has always shown that as one dispensation came to an end and another started, there was no overlap, therefore, by this we can see that the dispensation of Grace (Christians) and the dispensation of the Law (Jewish Mosaic Law) cannot, and will not, overlap. The dispensation of Grace will come to an end as the dispensation of the Law restarts. Just as we saw that the dispensation of the Law was set aside while the dispensation of Grace is here. As for the Philadelphia church, we can see that they have been kept from the hour of temptation. For we see temptation all around us, temptations which were just not there a hundred years ago. This verse does not say that they will be kept from Tribulation. So you are assigning a meaning to these verses which the bible does not support.

6. Lastly, look at the history of the Church. Throughout 2000 years you notice, God allows persecution of his saints. Try teaching this doctrine to the Christians in muslim nations or communist China that they will disappear before any persecution shall come upon them. You are right here, for there has always been persecution of God's saints to one degree or another. The Christians in the nations you speak of, become Christians knowing that to become a Christian will probably cost them, and their families, their lives, and even many of them will have their families try to kill them themselves. They absolutely know that to become a Christian is to be persecuted for the name of Jesus. And they are willing to be imprisoned, beaten, tortured, put to death in order to follow Jesus. Just how many in this country of America will continue to follow Jesus when they know that they could be killed for it, that they could loose all their personal belongings, their homes, etc. I don't know, but all of us are about to find out very soon. For the Sheep and the Goats will be separated just as they have been in China, with the Sheep in hidden home churches, and the Goats in the Government organized and controlled churches in church buildings.

7. Let me conclude this. I do not mean to debate you in anyway Rev. but as a brother I just want to reveal to you what I have gained from reading the Word of God. Please post back to me and let me know your views and why you believe in the pre-trib rapture. Oh my brother, we are not in a debate. Each of us has now stated out position of why we believe as we do. Neither of us is trying to make the other change their beliefs. I absolutely believe in your P.S. below. I tell the people the same. For only God can insure that you know the absolute truth. And if you ask God, He will tell you.

God bless you always,

P.S. To anyone who reads this post. Please pray about this deeply. Don’t listen to me or Rev. Jack but listen to the Lord.


Now, let me add the following.

I was taught throughout my life, and as I went through the Seminary, that the 7 year Great Tribulation would start with the opening of the Seals of Revelation. But recently the Lord God, showed me that the opening of the Seals was not the start of the Great Tribulation, but that the Great Tribulation would start with the Trumpet jusgments. The Lord showed, and told, me that the 1st Seal has already been opened. The Antichrist is even now gaining political power, rising to a position of controlling the leaders of the world from behind the view of the outside world. The Antichrist is conquering by peaceful means as Rev. 6:2 shows. A bow, but no arrows. The next seal will be opened soon, and we know that one is War. And the prophecies of both Raymond Aguilera, and Thomas Gibson, shows us that the war will be brought upon America as a judgment against them for their sinful manor and their refusal to repent as a nation. And that this war will be started sometime between 2005 and 2010. And that this war will be nuclear in nature, and will be followed by an invasion of attacking armies who will hunt down and kill Christians and Jews. It is during this time that the Mark of the Beast will be put into force in their attempt to track down the Christians and the Jews. There will be many martyrs during this time. It is during this time that the Christians will know to refuse the mark of the beast. Throughout this war, the Antichrist will be controlling the leaders of the world but will not himself yet be revealed. The Lord has revealed through His Prophecies that it is toward the end of this war that there will come a great Revival. Millions will come to the Lord God Jesus Christ at that time, and then will come the Rapture.

We know that the following seals of Famine (3), the killing of one fourth of the earth's population (4) with sword, hunger, and the beast of the earth. These always follow along with a war, and will fall, virtually together.

Now I do not care if anyone chooses to not believe, for that is between them and God. I have given the warning that I was to give. I know what the Lord God has told me will happen to me during this time, how I will serve Him, and how I will suffer for Him, and has shown me my part in that great Revival. I know that there will be many who will laugh at what I have said here, but there will come a time when as they see things happening, that they will remember that they were told, remembering that they were warned. My lord has said to me "Even your friends think that you are a fool, that you are weird, and people will deride you, will ridicule you, will make fun of you, and you will be mocked." So be it, for I follow My Lord and God Jesus Christ. I only care what Jesus thinks of me. I have already had some persecution against me, and there will be much more.

My Lord God has told me that I will still be alive when the Rapture takes place, and will go in the Rapture. And shortly there after, the Lord told me that I will not see my 80th birthday on this earth. Be it know to you that I will be 71 years of age in one month, Feb. of 2005. And I do not know just when that Rapture will take place, I only know that it will be soon, and that it will be before the Great 7 year Tribulation period, which is the ending of the dispensation of the Law, then Jesus Returns to the Earth to set up His Kingdom, and we, the Bride of Christ will come with Him at that time.

May the Holy Lord Bless and keep each and every one of you who reads this message.

I thank you Corxmega11 for your post. I know that the Holy Lord is using you, and will continue to use you in a mighty way, and that you will indeed listen to Him as He instructs you.
_________________
With the Love of Jesus
Rev. Jack Barr


And then how the Prophecy of Daniel's 70 weeks prophecy plays a part in this.


Posted: Wed Jan 19, 2005 3:13 am by Godsword


st_joel

Posted: Tue Jan 18, 2005 12:35 pm Post subject:
hey jack , hey guys , God bless.

jack i was wondering about what you posted above. you said that Grace will end and the mosiac law will be put back into order. I dont understand this. For Jesus says that no man comes to the Father but by Him. The Prophecy of Daniel as given in the Book of Daniel, Chapter 9, verses 24-27, is known as the Seventy Weeks of years prophecy which tells us that the Jews are given 70 weeks of years (490 years) from the time of the giving of the command to restore and to build Jerusalem, (by history and by Neh. 2:1-6 we know that the decree was issued on March 14, 445 BC) in order to finish their transgressions against God, and at the end of that period, which is 490 years, that The Messiah will return to the earth. The prophecy then goes on and breaks down those 490 years into fixed periods of time where certain events will happen. 7 weeks of years is given to finish the rebuilding of the temple, which took exactly 49 year ( 7 X 7 = 49). From that period is given an additional 62 weeks of years to the cutting off of the Messiah, which happened when Jesus rode into Jerusalem on a foal. We now have 7 weeks and 62 weeks for a total of 69 weeks of years which equals 483 years. And this leaves us exactly one more week of years, or 7 more years until the Messiah returns to the earth from the time the Messiah was cut off. (For more details and calculations, see [url:3m273de1]www.barr-family.com/godsword/daniel.htm[/url]This is an article which I did not write myself but only republished.)

Then as the Messiah (Jesus) was cut off, there should have been only 7 more years until he came back to the earth. But God suddenly said -- Time out -- We are now going to have a period when Grace will be the dispensation, and the Gentiles will be brought in to Jesus. So now we are in the period of Grace, and will remain so, until God says -- That’s enough of Grace, now back to finish Daniel's prophecy, where the Jews have seven more years to finish the fulfilling of this prophecy. But the Jews were living under Mosaic Law, and was to be under Mosaic Law for the entire 70 weeks of years, or the 490 years of the prophecy.

But Daniel's prophecy tells us something else about what will happen during this last 1 week of years, or seven years. Daniel 9:26-27 now tells us about the Antichrist who will be there during that last 7 years and what the Antichrist will do, making a 7 year covenant with Many, then breaking that covenant in the middle of it. And that 7 years will be under the control of the Antichrist for the entire 7 years, and the Jews will be back under Mosaic Law to finish out the Prophecy of Daniel.

Now it is absolutely true that none can come to the father except through Jesus. For not one of the Old Testament saints could go to heaven with the Father until they accepted Jesus as the Messiah when Jesus died on the cross and went down into hell (Paridise) to preach to them. And now, during the dispensation of Grace, the only way to the father and heaven is through Jesus Christ. And when the Jews go back under Mosaic Law, they will again have to accept Jesus Christ as the Messiah in order to go to the father in heaven. Every Jew since the time of Jesus, even today, when they accept Jesus Christ as the Messiah, they are not Christians, they are Jews who have accepted Jesus as the Messiah they were looking for. And during those last 7 years, the Jews who will accept Jesus as the Messiah will be the only ones, the remnant, who will be able to join the Father in heaven, thus being saved from the fires of hell.


Now this has only hit the highlights of why the Bride of Christ will be taken out of this earth before the Great Tribulation 7 year period.

We have all been taught that the 7 year Great Tribulation period as spoken of in Daniel, would start with the opening of the Seals. However the Lord God Jesus Christ has shown me that that teaching is wrong. For the Opening of the Seals happens Before the 7 year Great Tribulation starts. And the 1st seal has already been opened, and the 2nd seal will be opened in less than two years from now. That seal is War, world wide, leading to all the other seals being opened, leading to more than 1/4 of the population of the world dying.

The 7 Year Great Tribulation starts with the Blowing of the Trumpets, and Rev. 9:20-21 tells us that anyone who is not killed by the plagues of the Trumpets, do not repent, Ever.

We, the Saints, the Bride of Christ will go through a great tribulation period, but that period will be before the last 7 year Great Tribulation immediately before the Return of Jesus to set up His Kingdom.

And you are correct in seeing that the enemy does want all the Christians to believe that they will not have to go through any pain, suffering, or testing before being lifted off of this earth, and that false belief that is being taught will indeed cause many to fall away when tribulation falls on them. And that will be the Great falling away spoken of in the Bible.

Hi,

I wish to point out that Ray's prophecy gives very specific info about the rapture:



<.... The hour of My Ark (Non-understandable tongue ?), the hour of My Ark, the hour of My Ark, will be complete when the Antichrist approaches Mecca. The hour of My Ark, will be complete when the Antichrist approaches Mecca. Then the Horn, the Horn of Heaven and of Earth will be sounded. ....>

If you do Google searches for "Day of Mecca", "Ark", "Horn" keywords in prophecy.org, you will see that this Horn of Heaven will be the signal for the Rapture.

Here is an example with slightly different wording:


< .... For the day of Mecca will be a day of ever lasting Joy in Heaven. For the Heavenly Angels have been waiting, are ready, are prepared for the final most Glorious Day in the Universe, for when I bring My Children home. They are anxiously waiting for the hour of the Bugle, but there is still time. You still have a chance. So listen to the Prophets, listen to the Holy Spirit with your Heart, the Heart of your Soul, not your Mind, for your Mind can fool you.
.... >
Here it notes the Bugle, rather than the Horn, as a signal of the Rapture, but it would seem it means the same thing. The Angels are waiting for the signal to start the Rapture. Note, of course, that the name "Day of Mecca" refers to the global gathering of the faithful in the Lord's House by analogy, not to Antichrist's activities.

"The hour of My Ark" may also be a simultaneous statement about the restoration of the Ark of the Covenant in the Third Temple, which may or may not coincide with the Rapture. But I think there is no doubt that this refers to the Rapture first and foremost.

So as far as the timing is concerned, it might be possible to anticipate it when shortly before it comes, with the accuracy of a few months, depending on how high will be the profile of the Antichrist before it. I think that this prophecy is definitely given so that it does not fall on people out of the blue, so that there is some anticipation of it beforehand.

An interesting question to ponder is how does it fit into the endtimes timeline. I believe there is not enough data, but I will try saying a few more things there later on in connection with Daniel 9 and 11.

And finally, I want to note that we see hear an important property of Ray's prophecy, in that the statements concerning a single important factual event are dispersed through the various prophecies, requiring either reading through them all (that's what we are intended to do, no doubt) or reading a careful compilation to make sense of it. So the best thing of course is just to read the Prophecy Book from start to finish. But the there are also compilations, e.g. by Rev. Barr, and I will post several of mine own here shortly, because I feel Rev. Barr's is not quite complete.

By the way, the irony of posting on this forum after the last Prophecy about Christians in chat rooms is not lost on me. But I am guessing that the Prophecy is there for us to understand and talk about. But still something to ponder about...

MerMer Rae wrote:



From Raymond's Prophecy #45

I will take my lambs, my sheep, to heaven before the tribulation, Before the slaughter, before I lay my wrath upon the earth.

From Raymond's Prophecy #157

For the Day of My Son has arrived and He is going to come on the cloud as it says in the Bible, but there is time of suffering also.

The Tribulation spoken of here is the last 7 years of Daniel's prophecy. The Bride will be taken out Before that 7 year Tribulation period, but there will be a time of suffering before even that time that We Christians will go through. This has easily been thought of as being during the last 7 years. But they are mistaken. And I will not go into that on this post, as I have already posted it somewhere else on ProphecyLink.

69. Prophecy given to Raymond Aguilera on 29 May 1992 at 11:11 AM Friday in Tongues, English.

I love you, things are going smooth right now, but remember, there is going to be a time of tribulation, trials that you really won't be able to understand, but remember, the day is approaching where everything is going to come to a close. The Law that was stated in the Bible, about the end times is going to be fulfilled, as it was stated in the Bible.

For the hour and the day is approaching at a very rapid rate. The realization that your world is going to change will confuse many of you, for that idea seems incomprehensible. For you're complacent in your day to day activities. You are set in your way of life, but it is all coming to a close.

The last big War to be fought will happen in your lifetime. So be prepared, be strong, practice the Word of God in your everyday living. Practice the rules, the regulations that are stated in the Bible. Look to Jesus Christ of Nazareth, look to the Holy Spirit to guide you, look to Me to listen to your prayers, for the day of the Beast is here.

The day of this coronation will begin, when the Hornet and the Beetle clash. The outcome of that Battle will establish the authority and power of the Beast, which will begin the beginning of the end. Many are going to be confused for it will happen very fast. The ones who will be saved are the ones who will listen to the Prophets, and to the Just and Righteous Word, of Jesus Christ, Jehovah, and the Holy Spirit.

For what you will see in the near future is the beginning of the end. The end for the ones that are not Christians and don't believe in My Son, that He died for them on the Cross. The ones who don't believe, it will be the end for them. But the ones who believe, it is just the beginning of an everlasting Peace, and Joy in Heaven forever. I know these sound like just Empty Promises, Words without Authority, but it is the Truth. Jehovah says nothing but the Truth.

So remember, that when the end comes everyone that has ever existed will have to take account of their life. Of how they behaved in regard to their God, and their Brothers and Sisters, for nothing was created for evil. But Satan corrupted the Seed.

Now the day of Judgment is at a point, it is so close to your timetable of life. For some of you will follow Satan to the end, to the place appointed. The ones who Blaspheme My Name, My Son, and the Holy Spirit. And the others, the Ones who follow My Son, that have died, that have been tortured, that have been starved, that have suffered through the years, through sickness, through times of tribulation from their neighbors, from the Government, from every conceivable source, that the enemy, Satan, has dished out to them, those are going to live forever and ever and ever.

I know the Ones who are listening to this little Prophecy are going to say, "There is another nut speaking about the end times." But that's okay, We know it's their end. So let them say, let them think anything they want. But you, the Ones who are listening and reading and looking for answers to Salvation, open the Bible and read it.

Learn about your King, the Lord of Lords, the King of Kings and you will see him. You will talk to him for you'll be in Heaven Forever. Though you feel at times that there is no such place, but take My Word for it, Jehovah does not lie. There is a Place: it's more Wondrous, more Beautiful, it's Everlasting. Your minds could never conceive such Happiness, such Goodness, such Righteousness.

Because you were raised in an evil world, you were brought into Sin. How can you judge something you have never experienced? It's beyond your comprehension, for by nature your Body is sinful and something sinful cannot comprehend something Righteous. So this is where Faith comes in, you have to Trust in the Prophets, you have to trust in the Law of God, Jehovah, the Bible. The Holy Spirit will guide you, and will show you, but you have to make a commitment on your own. You have to Trust in your God.

You will get trials and tribulations, but We are at war. But the war is coming to an end. But if you are One of My Sons, the Lambs, you have already won. All I want you to do is tell your other Brothers and Sisters, the Ones that don't know the truth yet. Share it, spread the Word, for the more and more you strengthen the Body of Jesus Christ the more support you get from each other. The stronger you become, the less pain and suffering you'll endure in those times of trouble. For this last war will affect everyone in ways that you cannot conceive, and the time has begun.

So listen to your loving Father. You will be getting messages from the Prophets. If you get into the Bible and if you really study from your heart, I'll talk to you Myself. And you won't have to struggle so hard when you hear a Prophecy. Because if you're really a good Lamb, and a good Sheep, I might speak directly to you, but I only want those with a clean heart, clean mind, clean attitude. Sometimes it is hard to get into that type of mentality, but once you work on it, get yourself trained, it's not really that bad.

You're just used to the easy way, the other way, and that leads you into the Pit of Hell. Don't listen to the Ones who entice you to do wrong for Heaven. Well, you'll have to take My Word for it, you have to trust Me, that's the first step. I love you, I'll protect you, and no matter what happens, I am there right next to you, even though at times you'll feel that you're alone. You'll never be alone as long as you put your focus on Jesus Christ of Nazareth. He will lead you to Me, through the Power of the Holy Spirit. All of Us will bring this last chapter in this little Planet's short little life to a close.

So My Children, teach your Children to obey you, to trust you, and you teach yourself to obey Me, and to trust Me, and We will be one big happy family. Bring the Body of Christ together, for when there is Unity there is Strength. Swallow that pride, that ego, for a Child of Christ has no pride and no ego. They are believers of what's right, what's the truth, and they know how to humble themselves before their Lord and Savior and to each other. Sounds like easy words, but the world is so corrupt, if you don't have pride, if you don't have ego, you feel like you're not even human.

I love you with all My Heart, you'll have to trust Me. Make yourselves strong and obey the Law of Jesus Christ. There will be a day and a time that the Beast and his followers will persecute you. He will do anything he can to destroy you, mentally, physically, spiritually for the day of the Beast is at hand. But remember, all the Power and the Glory and Praises goes to Jehovah, Jesus Christ, and the Holy Spirit.

For the number of the Beast will be implemented on the weak, on the Sinful. DO NOT, I'll repeat it again! DO NOT TAKE THE SIGN OF THE BEAST. For if you do, you will not find Salvation. I'll state it again. DO NOT TAKE THE SIGN OF THE BEAST. No matter how hard it gets, No matter how easy it gets, if you value, and I mean, if you value your future, DO NOT TAKE THE SIGN OF THE BEAST, for you will be condemned to the VALLEY OF DEATH FOR ETERNITY.

This is the most BLASPHEMOUS thing you could do ever to your Lord Jehovah, and I WILL NOT FORGIVE YOU. When the sign of the Beast is issued, you run and you hide, do whatever you have to do, but DO NOT TAKE THE SIGN OF THE BEAST. I think I have stated it enough. I think I have made it simple, clear, and direct. I'll repeat it one more time, DO NOT TAKE THE SIGN OF THE BEAST, for you will find the VALLEY OF DEATH FOR ETERNITY.

So My Children, I hope your ears are unplugged. I hope I placed some fear in you, for what I say is the truth. You're going to have to make yourselves strong, stronger than you ever have in your whole life when those days and times come. For you're going to have to pray to your Father Jehovah. Read the Bible, bring the Body of Christ together. For this war is being fought in the Heavens at the same time, that the battle is being done on Earth. This is a War that encompasses the Spiritual and the Physical, what you can see and touch, everything that is evil, anywhere, anyplace, whether Spiritual, or Real, will be cleaned up once and for all.

So take care, be strong, get to know Me, Because I love you. This is Jehovah. This is Jehovah, the Creator of Heaven and Earth, of all that is Seen and Unseen, the Maker, the Breaker of the Universe.

Peace and Glory be to the Father, Peace and Glory be to the Father, Peace and Glory be to the Father, so saith, Jesus Christ of Nazareth, with the Power of the Holy Spirit. For We Love You Children, Listen to My Father, for he has nothing but Love. And He has given Me the Power and the Authority to carry out his Law. So remember what He has told you. Peace be with you My Lambs My Sheep for I will be there at the appointed time to pick you up and take you to Heaven, be courageous, be strong. Praise and Glory be to the Father. Praise and Glory be to the Father.

I'm going to use the same prophecy that Jack Barr used.

From Raymond's Prophecy #45

I will take my lambs, my sheep, to heaven before the tribulation, Before the slaughter, before I lay my wrath upon the earth.

From Raymond's Prophecy #157

For the Day of My Son has arrived and He is going to come on the cloud as it says in the Bible, but there is time of suffering also.

- If you read the total context of Prophecy #45 in conjuction with saying "before the tribulation," it also says "before I lay my wrath upon the earth." Before the Wrath is what is spoken of in the Gospel. The Son of Man comes, after the abomination of desolation steps up, upon a white cloud and the sun goes dark and the moon is of blood. Then the Wrath of God comes after these things.

God is not contridicting Himself here. The tribulation in God's eyes is His Wrath and not the persecutions of the Christians and the Jews. Tribulation and the Great Tribulation we will see, because why would God say even His elect would not be saved if He didn't shorten the time for the elect's sake. So of the Great Tribulation we'll see 3.5 years...this is the shortening of time. Tribulation for 7 years and the great trib for 3.5 years then the Wrath for the other 3.5 years. At least this is my understanding of it and I know I am not a scholar of the time, but this is from Matthew 24.

And how I got the 3.5 years is shortening for the elect's sake 7 years of tribulation and shortening it could be half or 3.5 years. But I also know it will be in God's good timing and this shouldn't separate us from God by debating His Word or the interpretation thereof.

Be prepared for the worst...If Jesus went through the persecutions and execution He went through expect to go through the same or similar fate, but know that you shall not know death. As has been shown many prophets through dreams and visions as they were about to be killed they were taken out of their physical bodies instantly because Jesus defeated sin and death and gave us back the keys of life and death that the 2nd Adam lost for us.

Pray and discern for yourselves and do not depend upon others understandings and wisdom but only upon the wisdom of God.

There are other examples in the Matthew statement speaking of the coming of the Son of Man and the warnings to watch for. Speaking of the rapture, Matt. 23 "Lo! here is Christ, or there. Do not go." (I'm guessing this is speaking of the Pre-Trib rapture believers.). And then later on. Matt 26 "Wherefore if they shall say unto you, Behold, he is in the desert; go not forth: behold, he is in the secret chambers; believe it not." (this is probably or possibly the during-Trib crowd). And then after the Abomination of Desolation the True Son of Man comes on a white cloud.

Read it and interpret it for yourself out of the Word of God and let God speak to you on it. Depend not on the understandings of men. Know and Only Believe that Jesus is enough and He will see you through all that should befall you during this time. And please do not lose faith during this time! Even if we are to suffer up until the point of death for our physical bodies know that we will not know death and be "caught up" or "caught away" in Jesus Christ before this moment...So whenever it actually happens "Only Believe in Jesus Christ" and know He will not foresake you nor abandon you.

With all my Love to you as a brother in Christ Jesus, May God Bless and Keep you Always in the Blood of the Lamb,

Tristan

P.S. Prophecy #157 - For the Day of My Son has arrived and He is going to come on the cloud as it says in the Bible, but there is time of suffering also.

Here read in the Bible when the Son of Man comes on the cloud. It is after the Abomination of Desolation...May the Complete Word of God speak unto your hearts so that you shall not be misled. In your Name Jesus I ask that you come into all our hearts and make us united in you and be committed to your Truth and Wisdom through your Name.

"but there is time of suffering also." We will suffer, but for the Greater Glory of God. I will gladly lay down my life for any of you on this list. I understand only a snippet of what Jesus went through, but I know that He will see me through if it is God's Will. May we all have the fortitude of Jesus Christ to see our works through for Him.